That was different. But they wernae really ... As I say, they wernae total ... There was like a lock on and stuff down at Pollok Castle estate. Wee Amy used to lock on to transit vans all the time! (laughs) With one of those bicycle D-locks, you know?

Oh God. See, I’ve only heard of a guy in a wheelchair doing that to a truck. The fastest guy in a wheelchair, 60 miles an hour, locked on to the front of a truck. (laughs)

That wisnae at Pollok, that was ...

That wis ... (laughs)

But there was a lot of ... So there was actions, people chained themselves to chainsaws and ...

Yeah, there’s footage of that.

Yeah. Then the chainsaws got put in a big safe and I dropped the big safe onto it’s front so they couldn’t get the chainsaws. Yeah, that was in an old school thing, an old nursery school that was lying abandoned because the road was going to be going through it all. So there wasn’t many actions outside Pollok itself. Though there was ... The Free State remained the hub, you know? And there was different groups in amongst the Free State itself. There was Friends Of The Earth, people like Greenpeace came along ... But I think the embodiment of the Pollok Free State wasn’t there was groups, it was the Glaswegians in a sense who ... I mean, don’t get me wrong, they gave Colin ... sometimes he got some stick but by the time he’d finished it he was totally praised for what he’d ... I mean, he got stabbed and all that. He really did take it to them. He had no fear, no fear. He just believed in what he was doing and he went for it. And so it was a privilege and an honour to help him in any way I could, you know? And I think everybody felt like that who met Colin. If he asked you to do something you just ... Because you knew it was something that you would ... He would ask you to do something but he knew you were the person to do that and it wouldn’t be anything he wasn’t prepared to do himself. So if he asked you to do something it was something that usually you wanted to do anyway, it was in your kind of sphere. The things he asked me to do, you know, just help him do building and ... So he used people’s talents and recognising people’s talents when they didnae. Making people feel ... the Free State was brilliant because people felt wanted, they felt part of something, which was great. I really loved it, really loved him for it. A real, real strong character, a strong gentleman. And he became a really, really good friend and that’s what I miss most. It wasnae Colin this warrior, it was Colin my friend. And he was, he was a dear soul. He even brought my set ... another half to my life. He even picked my wife for me, you know? There’s nothing you can do about it. He was, he was that kind of person. He was in your life, you know? When he was in your life he was in your life. It was for life! (laughs) It was for life and I won’t ever forget him. There’s not a day in my life I don’t remember Colin cos he was that much a part of it and that’s what I miss. I miss that phonecall, you know? “Want to do something?”

Aye: “Livi, I’ve got a job for ya! How do you fancy just coming up to Tarburt for the weekend? Got a boat that we’re sailing!”

Aye, I loved him for it. It was great, he was great. And that’s what I mean, he would never ask you to do anything that he knew you wouldnae enjoy, you know?

Is that what you think kept the camp together? Cos it lasted a long time.

Colin kept that camp together. Colin. Nobody else, you know? And all the inner bickering and all that, that all the different groups ... You know the way that life is, it’s all based on fractions and everyone fractionalises and that’s why they teach them algebra in school I think. You know, so they can become right wing of right wing of left wing of left ... and have gay rights and right wing rights and everybody ... but they all fractionalise and it keeps them all separate. I think if you don’t have somebody like Colin Macleod as a hub, then all these fractions don’t become a wheel because the spokes don’t join a hub and then they don’t come collective as a circle so I think you really need somebody ... Pollok could not have survived or would not have achieved what it had achieved had it not been for Colin Macleod. There is no doubt in my mind about that. He was the ... in a sense, you know, the brother figure, the father figure, your best pal, somebody who didnae take nonsense. Let’s just say he didnae accept nonsense but he was playful and funny, you know? Seemed so serious but he was so funny. He was all these wee ... You know, like quirks. But he was an inspirational man, you know? He really was. As I say: I’ve never met anybody like him and it was one of my best friends said to me, “Somebody you need to meet, somebody you really really need to meet!” And I was thinking: “I don’t need to meet anybody!” But when Scrappy Mick said that I thought: “Well, Scrappy Mick’s Scrappy Mick. He wouldnae ... “ So I thought: “Right! I’ll go and meet this guy!” And I went down to Pollok and there he was. And he asks me if I would help him and I says: “Right, no problem.” And he wanted to carve a block of sandstone so he asked me if I’d help him move it. So I picked up the rock and moved it for him and he went, “I could use you!” (laughs) And he did! He did but not in an abusive way. Not ... In a great way, you know? He was great, definitely one of my best ... My best friend, if you’ve got to class best friends as in the best person you’ve ever met! And most strongest character, most down to earth, know what I mean? Eh ... with true conviction. None of your wishy washy nonsense, true conviction. Like, his clan, “Hold Fast.” Their motto was “Hold Fast” and you couldnae get any more steadfast and anybody who would hold fast more than Colin Macleod. Truly, truly beautiful man, truly. And, as you know, I dearly miss him. Aye ... makes me sad thinkin about it.

It does seem like GalGael does continue ... like he passed something over to other people and ...

Oh yeah, definitely. The GalGael is ... I mean, it’s him. The ethos of Colin Macleod is in that organisation. Everything about him is in that organisaton, everything.

It’s quite interesting because when Colin died there was quite a time where everyone was going: “Oh, how’s this all going to work? Is it going to fall apart? Has it got the strength to be able to continue or ride it out or be able to work in the same way?” It was changed because it’s become a much bigger organisation as well. There’s ... Colin knew every single little bit of what’s going on in the organisation and the rest of us just go: “How the hell did he manage it?” (laughs)

Yeah, he was ... In the GalGael he was the spokesperson, the kind of heart, the soul of it. Gehan is a beautiful, extraordinary woman, his perfect partner in every way. She fulfilled ... it’s like they were both each side of a coin, you know? And Colin was the side that was always up, you know what I mean? Because Gehan was always there in that background doing everything and it all seems ... I used to feel sorry cos it always seemed as if we were out having fun and Gehan was doing all that work, you know? Getting all the funding and ... But Colin was always there to be the ... They worked in perfect symbiosis, you know what I mean? Something you couldn’t quite put your finger on. And the sacrifices! Sacrifices, that whole family, to achieve the GalGael ... It’s a family and ... You could basically call it a family charity because we all basically feel like a big family. It is like a big family, the GalGael. And anyone who’s ever been there or comes in amongst it realises that. It’s like a big close family. Everybody feels part of the GalGael family. It’s not something you feel you’re part of because you need to be. It’s something you’re part of because you’re part of. And Colin and Gehan were the kinda ... they were the rocks that it was all anchored to, you know? And the both of them were perfect at what they did and I really feel sorry for Gehan because to have lost your soulmate ... you know, the perfect perfect other side to your coin, you know? And it amazes me that she carries on so strongly. She’s one exceptional woman, you know? And she’s English! What can I say? Exceptional. Changed my whole attitude! (laughs) Aye, I love her to bits and so did Colin with all his heart and soul, heart and soul ... Aye, Pollok. It’s been a few years but I think the legacy still lives on because everywhere I go ... you know?

Yeah, loads of people in Glasgow know it and ...

Oh aye, they know the tree people. We were always known as the tree people. I mean, I couldnae get on a bus. If I was getting a bus over to here it would be: “Oh, you’re ...” and bus drivers didn’t ask me for money cos they knew you were going to Pollok so it’d be like: “Oh, you going off to the trees? Oh right?”

So do you think people in Glasgow recognised what the bigger picture of the Free State was?

It’s hard to ... That’s what I’m saying, the fractions I think ... The fractions come up a bit too much. I think because of the fractions, it didnae really get it’s voice across. I think Colin gave it as much as a true voice as it could and I think that’s where the GalGael started to emerge out of Pollok. It’s because all of the fractions. It gave everybody a chance to come under one umbrella, you know? So ... as in Glasgow, I understand it ... aye, I truly believe they did because they turned up in their thousands.

And if you look at what’s happening now with the Go Ape everybody’s sort of saying: “Well, hang on! Pollok Park belongs to the people! We don’t want this to be privatised!” So ... And I think that’s probably something that’s always been ... And it’s wrong. Pollok Free State, everybody knew about what was happening there and it’s always been very much a people’s park so it’s ... yeah, I think it’s coming back into the forefront of people’s minds.

Yeah, I think it must help, Go Ape, that the people who oppose Go Ape ... You know, Pollok’s already had that big first kind of road protest thing about it, you know? Because I remember we always got protestors coming up to visit us and asking how we were so successful but I believe that was because the people of Glasgow, because it was their property. As I say, I remember old guys coming fae gangs ... You know, all the old gangsters: “This is no yours, this is the Wee Bundies and ...” and you’re sitting there going: “Well, no. This belongs to us all, you know? And yeah, this is where your granda and your granny and all that ... yeah, concieved your da and yeah, you concieved your weans here and ... “ That’s no what we were there for. Colin was there because it belonged to these people, it belonged to people like Colin. Colin never seperated himself ... And that’s what I’m saying. People came to Pollok who werenae really part of the environment of Glasgow. You know, there was people who came from different walks of life and, you know ... They did. I think they called them “rent-a-protest”, know what I mean? There was people who were just turning up because ...

They liked to protest?

Yeah, they liked to protest. And I think some of them even went away from Pollok with a sense of: “There’s more to life than protesting.” Because it’s wasnae about protests. Pollok was about showing something different, about building things in woodlands, about making it ... You know, having a protest ... “Yeah, protect trees by putting greenhouses up them,” you know what I mean? Putting tree houses up and: “Let’s protect the trees. We’ll tie them all together!” Or ... And we’ll protect the trees because it was all about the trees. It’s a shocking indictment, there was six hundred year old trees chopped down. Now, if it’d been a house, it’d been moved brick by brick and would’ve been placed somewhere else as heritage, you know what I mean? But because it’s a tree it’s just: “Let’s get rid of this life force!” And I think that’s what Colin understood. It wasnae ... It was about everything. It was about the whole collective. It was about ... Because he was truly about people but he was also about people as part of nature, which is really important and people tended to forget that, because it’s a big park in the middle of a city, they forget the nature of the park and that ... We’re all so involved in ... Glaswegians are never that far away from nature. We all learn when we’re young to know all the birds, learn to fish in all the rivers, you know what I mean? Something that’s part of what we are. Glasgow’s surrounded by the green belt and every wee scheme’s got a wee pocket or a wee park where all the citizens of all these wee communities base themselves. Pollok Park was really like that. The Bluebell Woods was this amazing, extraordinary old wood and they just want to cut it all down, put motorways through it, roads through it ... And it wasnae about the road. It was more about: “This belong to us! You can put your road anywhere! And the road is just another problem you’re creating.” This is just to bring rich Ayr, a Conservative stronghold, to give them the services of Glasgow. It was basically it! They don’t pay. Eastwood and that don’t pay taxes to Glasgow so why give them a fast route into Glasgow? Why let them commute, you know what I mean? So the whole thing was ... It wasnae about us, it wasnae about the poor people of Glasgow. We’re not getting any benefits from a big road, you know? It wasnae ... It was just taking what was ours and turning it into something that shouldnae be there for the reasons it was there. It was completely political and that’s why Pollok kind of had it’s political agenda and then it had it’s people who were like Greenpeace who did want to save trees. Like Colin, Colin wanted to save a woodland. He wasnae protesting a road. He was trying to save a little indigenous wood that was ancient. It’s trees were magnificent. It’s still magnificent! Massive trees and the ones that they cut down and ... These were extraordinary trees and the wildlife and the life that had lived on these trees. It was a whole eco structure and government and politicans and councillors don’t care about that kid of stuff. All they care about is: “Oh, we need a fast access route to Ayr.” What comes fae Ayr to Glasgow? What the hell ... ? Is there a port down there or something, you know? It was just ...

The airport? (laughs)

Well, the airport was already there. It wasnae ... It was about bringing Eastwood and Ayr into quick ... to have a quick road into Glasgow so that the rich, affluent, Conservative MPs could keep Ayr Conservative, a Conservative constituency, where they could remain rich in their own wee secular place but they could get a fast journey right into Glasgow with a motorway which would cut an hour off their time. It just didn’t do any benefits to ... As I say, it went through too many poor areas to be doing anybody any benefits. It didn’t ... It wasn’t for the people of Glasgow, that’s for sure. If we want to go anywhere, we get on the train! (laughs) Glaswegians don’t leave Glasgow very often unless we’re going abroad. So ... it was strange. I do believe that the people got an idea of what was going on and I do believe that that has enabled ... like Go Ape now. Because they know Pollok belongs to us. We’re all born in Glasgow. Nothing really great about that except we’re Glaswegians! But Pollok does belong to Glaswegians and I think it was worth ... it was worth it for that. I think that’s why ... well, I certainly was involved because it was one of those things that I do believe in. I do believe that these parks were left to us. They were left to us because of our ancestry, you know? Because of the greatness of the Glaswegians, the friendliness of Glaswegians. That’s why Maxwell left it. That’s why he didnae leave it to any body. He didn’t leave it to sons, he didn’t leave it to anybody. He left it to the people of Glasgow and that has to be respected and it wasn’t and Colin was one of the people who asked: “Why hasn’t this been respected? Why aren’t you respecting the will and testament of someone who this belonged to who had that right, as everyone else has the right to leave their ...?” Does that mean that the government now ... Parents can leave you their house and leave you everything, does that mean that the government can come in and go: “Actually, we’ve got a trust set up and we’re gonnae take that off you! We’re going to take a piece of that house off of you! Because really your parents didnae have the right to leave you that house.” So I think it was that battle that needed to be fought and I think he was the man.

Why do you think the National Trust didn’t stand up against it?

I think the reason that the National Trust didn’t fight against it was ... I don’t believe in the National Trust. I think they’re there as an embodiment to help the status quo. I’ve always believed that they’ve been looking after the rich and these titles and this feudalism that doesnae really belong in Scotland. They’re protecting something that’s completely anti-Scottish because liberty is something that we hold dear. I mean, Scotland has always held this idea of liberty. I mean, even when we joined the Union we wouldnae pay them taxes. We ended up with us all being smugglers because everybody likes liberty! No-one wants the government interfering up ... “What do you want money off us for? You’re the government, what do you need our money for? You’re running a big multi-national ...” But the National Trust has been there to protect this image; this shortbread tin image of Scotland which is completely alien. It’s an English idea. It’s got nothing to do with Scotland. The reason I believe is so that they can bite into all the other wee bits that the National Trust have been given. Not the Trust that they’ve got looking after the house down the road which is listed, and that if the laird needs his roof re-done then it’s paid for out of tax payers’ earnings so that he can have a new roof. He owns that house. He should be fixing the roof. If he cannae fix the roof, he should be like his ancestors, he should be made bankrupt and the house should be then sold on to someone else who’s the new upper classes. It just shouldnae be a title that’s handed down and if you’re handed down the title then you should be ... at least be able to be convicted of the sins of your ancestor. Do you understand? So it doesnae work. It’s no working. And the National Trust ... you know, they’ll protect all the lairds and they’ll protect all the lords and all their land and they’ll help people keep the freedom so that we cannae roam through areas which we’re supposed to be as a birth right, the right to roam ... So they protect all this land for the status quo and the Pollok ... the first thing they were given, imagine that. The first thing ever put in their trust, they broke the trust. So how can they have any say in the future about anything entrusted to them, you know what I mean? So, to me, they’re just a bunch of ... I don’t want to swear but they’re a bunch of idiots, you know? They’ve got some mad shortbread tin ideologies about Scotland which is holding us in the past. That’s always what I remember about Colin. It was like: “Yeah, we come from this ancient tribe that’s developed and enhanced the world! We’ve been inventive because it rains all the time and you have to sit indoors and invent things to keep us fae getting bored, you know?” But we’ve always developed as a nation and I believe these people are holding us back and diving into the things that ... Why don’t they build the motorway through some flippin laird’s place on the way up? Why don’t they take lands off of somebody else? Why take it off of us? Because the poor people ... Glasgow is a real poor city. It does have a poverty problem. It’s got a social poverty problem. And if you keep biting into all these park lands, the city will lose it’s identity because it is a really quite natural city. All Glaswegians love nature, they truly do. They know all their wee birds. I mean, I’m a Glaswegian. I was born in the Gorbles and I’ve a deep understanding, a deep respect, of nature. And I live with it but ... it’s ... I’ve always believed that Pollok and the things that we were left, Glasgow Green, should just be left to be developed in the future as good for the city. If it’s good for the city and ... if it’s good for Ayr, that’s no good to us. So I believe his message was the right message and it did ... it must help things like Go Ape because it’s there in black and white - Pollok belongs to the people of Glasgow. You don’t charge people to get into something that they own, you know? You don’t build a dangerous big motorway right through the middle of it, to cut the park in half. It just seems so ... It seems as if the poor have always got to pay for the affluence of others and I think he had ... Colin was quite a social commentator for his time. I believe he was finger right on the button, basically a product of his time. And so things were changing and things had to change and we had to defend these simple things. I mean, nature is a simple thing. It’s not got a voice of it’s own so if it’s not for people like Colin to bring out the voice of nature into people’s lives then the National Trust will keep selling off a wee bit more and a wee bit more and a wee bit more. I mean, when does it stop? Does the Cairngorms ... ? Are you gonna have something up the Cairngorms that the National Trust ... ? It’s ours! The Cairngorms is ours. It’s a national park! It’s been set up so no one can damage it but the first thing the National Trust were given, they damaged, so if that’s what they’re gonnae keep doing how can we leave it in their hands, you know?

Just thinking, it kind of connects ... At the same time that Pollok was happening, you had Assynt buying back ... ?

Yes, I went up with Colin.

And you had the Eigg Trust which Alasdair ...

Yeah. Well, that’s how we met Alasdair.

Do you think Pollok was like an urban equivalent or is there parallels with that?

I think they both ... You’re right in a sense. All the products of the time, you know ... Something had to be done. Something had to be said, you know? And Assynt, the crofting community buyouts ... I mean, me, I would love the idea if the whole buyout scenario was taken to it’s full conclusion, which would be let the schemes buy ourselves out because we’ve been living in reservations since forever, so let’s have it done right because we’re no Irish, we’re Scottish, and we’ve always been living in poverty because we’ve all came from the Highlands and we’ve all came down here to work in the mills and our ancestors ... I mean my ancestors have been in Glasgow for three hundred year from the Islands. Glasgow ... We’ve been here for three hundred year so it’s a development of your city and it’s our city. We’re born in it. You don’t get a choice where you’re born but you do have to protect what is yours because it’s really important because it’s something that’s tangible, something that’s ... You can go for a walk in Pollok Park. I suppose if it hadn’t have been left it would just have been bought up and be houses but Maxwell decided that that wasnae happening, and he decided he was gonnae leave it as other. It’s like Kelvingrove was left to the people of Glasgow. Glasgow Green was left to ... People of Glasgow must be extraordinary people if all these rich entrepreneurs end up buying all this and then going: “Oh right, we’re just going to leave it to ...” Didn’t leave it to the council, didn’t leave it to the National Trust. Do you know what I mean? It wasn’t left ... The National Trust was established because it was ... And that’s the other thing that really pisses me off. Why set up a National Trust for something that’s ours, as if we can’t be entrusted to look after our own property? As if we need these people with intelligencia, university degrees and all that and coming from different ... all these landed gentried backgrounds. And I remember Colin setting up this thing with Fordyce, the head of the Landowners Federation, with Lesley Riddock just about that time because the debate was opening up around Scotland and Colin decided it would be good to get Fordyce in, to get Lesley Riddock in, and let’s have an open discussion, before the buyout at Assynt and all that and ... it was: “Let’s see what the landowners have got to say.” And this man stood before us and said that the reason that the landowners were the best people to look after the land of Scotland was because it was almost as if it was an inherent right because they’d been born to it. And it made me think of the bad husbandry that’s been going on for four hundred years, the piss and shite that’s being thrown onto the ground, and I felt like strangling the man because ... “You’ve turned Scotland into this shitty, polluted ...”

Monoculture.

” ...monoculture!” You know what I mean? “You’ve killed off all the wildlife that didnae suit yous!”

Apart from deer!

Exactly. To charge people to come and shoot them. Where we’re no allowed to eat them! It’s all ... “Yous keep to your wee poor areas and we’ll look after the rest,” as if we don’t have any rights to it. As if, by some birthright, you know ... But if you take that birthright far back, you’ll find criminals. You’ll find people who sold people to slavery and I find that fucking completely ... Lord Macdonald sold five thousand of his clan to slavery! Seven and six he gets for every one of them! He sends them to Canada, Australia, America ... You know what I mean? Black Agnes! Sells her whole clan. This has been going on for years and it’s time that the buck stopped and I think ... Alasdair MacIntosh once wrote a thing on the Brahan Seer and it was that: “Scotland would be free when a horse’s carriage runs under the sea between the old enemies,” right? So he’d wrote a thing that Colin was ... That the Brahan Seer’s predictions might be coming true because what Colin was doing at Pollok ... Because the last battle for Scotland’s independence, for Scotland to be free, was supposed to be on the sandy knolls of Glasgow which is why Charles Edward Stewart’s trying to fight to bring it up to Glasgow but the citizens of Glasgow are like: “You get tae fuck!” (laughs) “Take your battle somewhere else!” And Scotland would have that ... And I believe Colin was that kind of figure, you know what I mean? I do believe his legacy will live on, you know? I think that’s why he left us so young. So his legacy would remain ... And I always say, he must be needed up there because there must be a big battle going on in heaven man. Fuckin’ ragin’ the now. And even if there’s not, there will be when he got there! He’ll have had a wee word or two with the man up the road, I’m sure. I’m sure. But he did have a deep love of people, of God, of nature ... Truly exemplary person. I learned a hell of a lot from him. I always say, I was privileged to be at the feet of a master, you know? Someone that had mastered life and mastered love, mastered happiness, mastered understanding and relationships, you know? He was a true master of life and an example to every one of us. A living example to every one of us of ... yeah. “Take what you’ve got and do the best you can with it,” and he certainly did. He certainly did. He never done anything half hearted, you know? He made things of absolute beauty out of things he just ... I thought of myself as an artist until I met Colin, in a way. But Colin, he just have a wee try at everything and he could do it, you know what I mean? He just produced these wonderful works. And he was so interested in how the Africans made their carvings and how all these indigenous people and ... his respect and his understanding of these people. I mean, we had people ... we had Aboriginees come, we had American Indian Chiefs come, and they loved him! They truly adored this man because he was none of your airs and ... You know what I mean? It was: “You take me as you find me and this is who I am! And if you don’t like it, who gives a ... ?” and that’s just who he was and everybody loved him, everybody. There’s not many people you could actually say that ... A lot of people say ... oh, somebody’s dead and they’ll say: “Ah, everybody loved him and he was a great guy and ... “ No, Colin Macleod truly was an extraordinary, exemplary human being with just the right amount of everything, humility, respect ... But he still had that confidence in himself which human beings need to have to ... you know, to really get on with it. And he had it, he truly had it. He believed he could do anything and I believe he could and I’m a man that can do anything so meeting somebody else who you know can do anything ... It’s like: “Wow!” So, he was, he was a great friend to me. My best friend and I’ll miss him till the day I die. And the day I die I’m hoping to join him, you know? As I did on earth, so shall it be in heaven or wherever it is we end up. Could be the great halls of Valhalla or wherever. I don’t care. Could be Hell but if you’ve got a good friend by your side it doesn’t matter where you end up! (laughs) Aye ... I truly loved him, truly.

One of the things Gehan spoke about was connected a bit to what you were saying before we started recording ... was how because the Free State was a free space, it often brought people in who in a way released their problems.

Definitely.

How did that affect things and how did people work through that?

Well, that’s what I’m saying. I think Colin, because he ... The background Colin has of being a loving ... come from a great family and a loving community and, you know, really just had that inner strength that enabled him and I suppose that group of friends that he had to be able to deal with anything. Yeah, a lot of emotions and a lot of problems came out of Pollok and a lot of problems that happened because it was like a microcosm. As I say, many different people from many different environments so a lot of learning went on there, a lot of development went on. It shaped Pollok and it shaped, I think, all the people and it gave us ... I don’t think if it hadnae happened then the GalGael would not have happened. I think it was because Pollok was to deal with a problem but then that problem shows up other problems in society, as you’ve got all these people coming in to a free space and that free space kind of breaks all the bonds so when the bonds are breaking off, these people become ... Because they’re chained to that life and then they start to see something different and think: “Well, I could maybe break my bonds here.” But that’s an emotional journey in itself, you know? Cos you don’t know you’re a captive until you see freedom, you know what I mean? If you’ve always lived behind bars, you just think the bars are part of your environment until somebody opens the door and I suppose that’s where you get that “opens the floodgates.” And so I think that helped in the development of the GalGael because the GalGael was, first and foremost, established to help with these problems, these social problems that were inherent to the poverty of Glasgow. But to take that out into the further ... Because it was all about clan-chising, [?] you know? About moving this out into the wider Scottish ... You know, let’s connect all the coastal communities. Let’s tree plant and let’s build boats so we can get into these areas and plant trees and, you know, really bring it all about again, remembering that nature is an inherent part of Scotland. It’s been part of Scotland’s history, it’s part of Scotland’s future. And so are the people, they’re both moulded together, and I think Colin saw this separating just at that time where humanity’s moving a bit too far away from nature and I think Colin was that: “Look, come on! You better get back, you better stop! Woah!” He was here for that purpose, was to go: “Right, woah. Don’t get too much up yourselves as humanity because, in the big scale of things, we’re not that important unless we’re making a difference here,” and I truly believe that’s what he was. He had the power to bring everybody together. He brought people like me, people who grow up on the streets of Glasgow, and people who’d been to university, doctors and professors, and brings us all together under, as I say, this umbrella. We were all sheltering under this umbrella and almost in his ... So, you know, you’re in his ... Cos Pollok was his, I truly believe that. No matter what. I went to help at Pollok because of Colin Macleod, because I met Colin Macleod and went, “I’ll help you do whatever you want to do. Whatever you want to do.” Cos you could see it in him that he was this exceptional human being who wasnae trying to do something to make himself famous or, you know, or to win respect from anybody. He wasnae doing it for any reason that was for him. It was because he had to. It was the calling. You know, like some people get the calling to the ministry? Colin had his calling and it did happen. He really woke up a lot of people, really. I mean, everybody I know always asked about him. He was truly well loved and he was ... That phone of his! He had a book with about three thousand telephone numbers, you know what I mean?

When Colin died, they tried to contact everybody to tell them about it and they got to E before the funeral. That was it!

Everybody who came ... You know, it was Colin. He was the front. And then when Colin and Gehan got together, as I say, it was just a perfect thing, you know? They both really enhanced each other in such a beautiful way, it was truly magnificent. The two of them really worked well off each other. The friction was a real loving friction, you know? It wasnae: “Da, da, da, da” that you’re used to seeing in Glasgow. A truly loving man, wasn’t he? Just an exceptional human being. I just ... I cannae get over that he died because ... But it’s true. They say the good die young. An old saying but ... I truly expected him to be burying me. We used to joke about it but turned out the other way. Aye, he was some guy. My friend Colin Macleod. Aye, good guy. As I say, GalGael was great. It enabled me to go up to like Assynt crofting community, you know, and meet all these different people fae different walks of life. And it certainly gave me an understanding. I grew up in Glasgow so I’m very blinkered, my understanding of the world, very set in my own class. I’m a slum child, born in the Gorbals. Very, very blinkered ... As I say, I’m born on one side of the road. It’s a busy road and everybody tells me I’ve got to cross to the other side to be normal and you get to the other side and normality’s not really ... The rules are all different so it’s not an easy adjustment but certainly Colin Macleod was that thing for me. He was the person who really opened a lot to me because I was ... grew up in a vicious world and you end up quite vicious.

A lot of people, they don’t necessarily say it outright, but they talk a lot of crossing a threshold through ... Like when Rosie Kane describes coming to Pollok the first time, she talks about how she walked into the wood and the wood turns into a house and then she knocks on a tree but it’s like knocking on a door so she’s kind of going into someone’s house and then you look at the car henge. Cos that’s what a henge is, it’s this sort of psychic threshold that you pass through and kind of beyond the kind of anti-car statement that car henge makes, it makes this other statement which is like the threshold that everyone’s going through and you’ve just said that thing about crossing the road ...

Yeah, it’s a Glaswegian ... That’s right in a sense. As Glaswegians we react to each other as Glaswegians and so that would mean that you’re territorial. It’s that territorial thing. Glaswegians, we are really violent but we’re only violent to each other cos we grew up in this gang warfare and it doesn’t affect anyone apart from us. There’s no victims, know what I mean? We’ve got the lowest sex offenders rate in the world. But it’s the most dangerous place to live if you’re a young man between the ages of 12 and 26 in the world. Now that’s just something that we have to deal with and, as I say, that’s just what I grew up in and have to deal with and I become part of that. It becomes part of me, I’m part of that and Pollok ... Yeah. I had moved out here to get away from gang warfare and, as I say, from one side of a pavement, one side of a street and all the rules I’ve learned on this side of the street, and it’s not until you try to leave that you realise that everybody’s trying to knock you down. They don’t want to leave you, they don’t want you leaving your side of the street. The ones that are on this side are trying to knock you down because it’ll make them feel foolish if you can cross the road coming from a worse background so it’s almost like trying to hold you down. It’s like, no one’s allowed to get any better. It’s like Glasgow ... Strange mentality. And so gangs are inherent. My Father was in gangs. My Grandfather was in gangs. My Great-Grandfather was in gangs. So it’s territorial, why would you go to Pollok when you come fae the East End of Glasgow, you know? But that’s what Colin did. He brought all these people in no matter where they came fae, you know what I mean? There was times when the conflict of that gang warfare came into the house of the Free State but it wasnae tolerated and it was told tae go by people who had come through it. Cos we were all Glaswegians, Colin and myself, we were all Weejies so you’ve got that voice of your city. You’re not tolerating, you’re saying: “Get that tae fuck! That doesnae fucking belong here,” and as long as you’re speaking with the accent of your side of the road, it’s understood and that’s how he managed to do it, I believe, is because he walked the walk and he talked the talk and had he no been able to do that, Pollok would never have been possible because no one else could’ve done it. Only Colin because of that realism that: “Yeah, he’s a Glaswegian!” he was born in Australia but he grew up in Glasgow. He spoke pure Glaswegian. He swore like the best of us when he had to! But no, when he didnae ... It’s like that thing that Gladstone says: “All Glaswegians are bi-lingual, “ you know? Speaks better English than any of his learned friends in Westminster and they speak their own language which no one understands and it’s that being able to mix the languages up, where Colin could speak to professors and doctors yet, when the neds came in, he was quite as fluent with their language as he was speaking to the doctors or the MPs or heads of industry ... Like Wimpy, when they came in. So Colin was that ... He was the ... Not just the spokesperson. I believe he was the heart of Pollok, it’s heart and soul, you know? And, of course, with Gehan being at his side, that enhanced it. The two of them just seemed to be the ying and yang of it. As Colin was out and about and talking to them, Gehan was at the back, getting all the wee bits that pull it all together, you know? That kept it strong. And same when it moves into the GalGael. It’s the same thing. She’s in the office and we’re building boats. What would you rather do? You know? But somebody’s got to do it and that’s why ... The two of them were like that. So the GalGael is the child of Pollok, that’s what it is. It’s the child of Pollok Park. It’s the free child of Pollok Park and the buck goes on, you know? It goes on and that child is developing into quite a bright young teenager! (laughs)

People sometimes talk about him as the leader of the Free State. He doesn’t seem like someone who sets himself up as a leader.

Definitely, no. That’s what I’m trying to say.

... someone that stands back ...

No, that’s what I’m trying to say. He was the heart and soul of the thing. As in a leader, aye, in a sense. He could’ve ... I always say he could’ve led me anywhere. I would’ve followed him anywhere. I would’ve ... Because he becomes that kind of influence in your life. He really was a strong character. He never asked you to do anything that wasnae the right thing to be done!

It’s more like he’s a guide though ...

He is like that. He’s the guide. He’s the person who helps you develop yourself. He doesn’t ... I mean, the thing with the GalGael, showing people how to do things. I mean, he’s ... The funny thing he used to say was: “The first day you come in you’re a visitor and the second day you come in you’re a volunteer and you’re shown how to do something. The next day when somebody else comes in, you show them what you’ve learned.” And everybody takes that ... It’s like a family thing. You’ve learned something so you teach it because you’ve learned something and it’s something that you want to learn. And that was the whole thing about the GalGael, set up to enable to do what they wanted, like a big workshop ... Almost like a big playground for the boys, you know, for the women. And that’s what he was really into. And one of his things before he died, he wanted women to get into stone carving and he wanted women ... He was like that: “A big group of women for stone carving!” Who else would’ve though: “Let’s get a gang of women to start carving stone?”

I think Colin because of his family values, he was like every man out there had to have a woman by his side and there wasnae enough women at the GalGael! He wanted everybody partnered off. (laughs)

Well, there was that. Aye, he had that family value thing, he certainly did.

Cos the number of people that got with him as well!

Aye but his empowerment of people, of women, you know ... He was never condescending which is a very West Coast thing. You always find in West Coast men, we’re very condescending of women. It’s kind of weird. But he was never like that! He was always empowering. Because he was, he was truly a person who was magnanimous in that we were all equal. There wasnae a job that a man could do that a woman couldnae do equally well. Or, as he would say sometimes: “If no better.” So he wasnae into that stereotypical: “Oh that’s a man’s job and ...” It was always done in fun as well, wasn’t he? There was nothing serious about the way ... So you could say he was a leader but, aye, he led you to the ... Only in that he led you to the truth so he was a leader in that he led you to understanding, you know? And that makes him a leader and that makes him a true leader, not someone who barks orders like your megalomaniac leaders now, you know, who are power hungry. He wasnae ...

It’s like with the different with the landowners and the national ... The people that grew up thinking of themselves as leaders and seeing that as a position they have in society, that they have the right to tell people ...

To win ... To have affluence ...

I guess that’s not what Colin did.

No, no. Colin saw through that, saw through that, because their affluence doesn’t really exist because we don’t respect them and we’re the silent majority. It’s just that we haven’t woke up yet. It was people like Colin that could snap their fingers and take us out of this hypnotism, this hypnosis, that we’re all in. It’s as if Colin’s one of they people who went (clicks fingers) “Wake up!” And you just went: “Right, where the fuck have I been?” And, yeah, in that he led you to that (clicks fingers) because ... I mean, he’d tell people in Glasgow that they’re no drinking in the Free State, right? It takes a powerful, powerful man to say to a city of alcoholics: “Please don’t drink here, don’t demean this place by turning it into a drinking den. It’s no about that.” And people respected it! People would go away and have their drink, come back to Pollok sober and then the jobs would get done and there wouldnae be that ... So he recognised the problems, the West Coast problem of drink and all that and just said: “Right, this is a free state but here are the rules and they’re just simple. They’re rules that make sense. They’re no there to take your civil liberties away. They’re there to liberate everybody else, you know what I mean? Cos nobody needs to be ... Cos we’ve got weans here and all that so let’s keep drink away fae the camp. Drugs, away fae the camp. Because this is a free state, it means we’re having the freedom to choose not to do these things!” And that’s the freedom. That’s where the freedom of the Free State was, that there were rules but they were free rules. They were rules that liberated people rather than restricted people, by saying: “Please don’t drink here!” it was liberating everybody else from the people who were drinking and just loud and it enabled Pollok to develop and the people to develop and to get a harmony and that harmony still exists with us all. We’re all like one big family. We truly are like one big family. I mean, I don’t have a family, I grew up in care. I have a family but not that I’ve known. So Pollok, the people, at Pollok, the tree people, my people ...they became like my family and constantly they are my best friends, you know? GalGael is part of my life now. It’s part of my life at the beginning, it’ll be part of my life at the end because I know that it can only ... I know that it’s changing and I know that it has to change because the dynamics have changed but it’s no changed in a bad way. It’s changing in the right way, in the way it had to move forward. It was always going to be the case because it is a liberating organisation. It’s about helping people to help themselves, not to help themselves to it but to help themselves, you know? And that’s the most liberating thing in this world, to be taught that: “You’re no worthless. There is actually something that you can do,” you know? And Glasgow’s so full of people who are kind of wasted by the illusion that they cannae do anything, that their lives are useless and hopeless and places like the GalGael and the Free State showed those wee lost people, you know, “God almighty, there’s an alternative? There are people who really are people?” You know what I mean? It’s no just automatons, there are people really are alive, who are thinking, who are loving, who are concerned. And he was, he was all of these things with this big beard and dreadlocks! I mean, what can I say about him? He was just ... he blew my mind. He blew my mind completely. He was just one of the most exceptional people I have ever known, I will ever know ... I guess it’s destiny, you know, that he ... Just destined to be who you are and, in a way. One of the things that makes me really enjoy my life was that Colin was part of it. It definitely brings a lot to me. I’d always been outside and your ... I mean, I’m out here 20 years and it’s a lonely life and you’re out here and nature’s wonderful, it’s a great friend when you’re lonely. It’s great to be part of it and understand it be enveloped by it and so you become isolated and I think that would’ve been a continuum for me. Coming from an institutionalisation, out here, and if it hadn’t have been for Colin, I think I would’ve just been up here more or less a hermit for the rest of my life and it wasn’t until I met Colin that I went: “Fucking hell. There are actually people out there who are free radicals! They think, you know? They think. They just don’t take what’s said to them. They question it. They try to change it.” How many people have you ever met who have ever tried to change something? Who really went out and went: “I’m going to try to change this!” They’re so unique, you know? They’re one in five million, one in ten million. There will never ever be another Colin Macleod, never. I thought I was unique, right? (laughs) I thought I was completely one off but I met Colin Macleod and it made me realise I’m just the same as everybody else because that is unique, that spirit ... having the same, in a different kind of way, but he had it. I have it for me. I had a selfish thing. Colin taught me that if you’re no working for the rest of the world, if you’re no working to better the rest of the world, then you’re no part of it and when you’re no part of it ... I used to believe: “Och, don’t need to be part of it. It’s irrelevant, doesn’t affect me. It’s got nothing to do with me, I’m quite ... I live out on the hills. I don’t care. You can do what yous like.” And then when I met Colin I thought: “No, there are people who really want to change this. There are people who really want to work at changing this world. There are people who really believe.” And I really believed that he would and I know that he was. I know that he has changed the world because he has changed so many people. He’s touched so many people. At his funeral, Alasdair had said that Colin had made friends of neds and ministers and people from different walks of life so I didn’t know ... So we were walking along and I was speaking at his funeral so as I’m walking along carrying his coffin I’m thinking: “What am I going to say? What am I going to say about Colin Macleod?” And ... So when I get in front of the church I says, “Well I’m a ned!” And the whole church ... Well, most of them were neds so they all start applauding.Remember?

(laughs)

So I says: “I’m a ned but I’m proud that Colin called me his friend.” You know? To me, that’ll never leave me, that he called me his friend. When we met the politicians, he says I was his cohort. I had to look it up. Apparently it’s somebody who’s dragooned into a Roman legion so it’s like the two of us had been dragooned into this thing that we had to do! But I never thought ... as I say, I would’ve just helped him do anything if he’d asked because ... I did, I had a deep love for the man. He was truly an inspiration. Truly was an inspiration. Inspired me and so many people in so many ways. Yeah ... Honest and sincere, was he not, Fiona?

Yeah.

Completely sincere. I mean, used to make me sick how sincere he was! (both laugh)

How truthful!

Aye. Oh, God. But if you’ve no got a friend like that, you’ve no got a friend, you know? Somebody who’ll tell you the God’s honest truth. No dress it up, just tell you: “Here it is,” from the eyes of somebody who just sees the truth. Helped me that way, really helped me a lot and everything I’ve been able to do, in some way ... I’d have never been able to do all this without Colin Macleod and I can say that in total honesty, even this. Everything I built ... I built one of my teepees and Colin arrives one Saturday with two big white tarps, you know what I mean? Two thousand pounds worth of tarps and he’s picked them up for 20 quid fae somebody in Kilmarnock just because that was the way Colin was, you know? Just knew everybody. Come up one Saturday and went, as I’m building a big teepee and I couldnae cover it because it was too big. And Colin, he’s always considering other people and then the next thing I know he’s arrived and he’s got me these size of football fields of white canvas! I’m going: “Where the hell did you get this?” And he went: “Aye! Just let’s say that I was speaking to somebody and they said they had it and then I got it for you!” And I’m going: “Well, I’ll buy it!” And he’s going, “No, no, no.” And he was like that, he would never ... So he would help you ... He would be thinking of everybody. That’s what he was like. There was so many times we were doing things and someone would go: “Oh, would you like this?” and Colin would go; “Hold on! I know somebody that was looking for one of them!” And it wouldnae be money and it wouldnae be ... I mean, all the things that we did at the GalGael. When someone asked us to do something, you know, go away and do something like the bridge for the Steiner school, we never said “Pay us money,” do you know what I mean? The joke used to be: “Oh, just get us a bottle of whisky,” you know? Then we’d all have a wee dram. You never bothered you werenae working for money. I mean, you were doing something that was good for communities. It was all community based work. Go and build something for a community. Go and help a community do something. You never asked for money, money wasnae a concern. If you got a wee dram and a wee bit to eat that we usually took ourselves! Have a fire, barbecue ... I mean, that was the ... It was almost as if the thing was a big party, you know? But it wasnae ... It was just that it was fun. It was that it was ... I mean, there was some crazy times. There was some madness in amongst it all but he took it all with a pinch of salt, didn’t he? Just ... He realised that people ... He knew people. He knew that deep down he could look into the soul of a man and I always knew that. He could look ... He was one of those truly exceptional human beings who saw past all the things that you paint yourself with, you know? All the illusions that you cover yourself in and all the thought that you think you’re ... Colin was one of the people who forced you to see yourself as who you were. To me he was a great mirror, eh? Absolutely great mirror. Because you ... People that you become close and learn to love help to show yourself, yourself. It’s like looking in a mirror because you have to see what they’re seeing in you. If someone offers you love, you’ve got to be able to accept it so you’ve got to really search deep inside yourself and say: “Can I take this reflection? Is that the right ... ?” And that’s what I mean about Colin. Colin saw you for all the wee ... idiosyncrasies, is it?

Idiosyncrasies.

He saw all these wee things and he saw all your wee flaws but they werenae that important ... you know what I mean? He saw you for what you were and he didnae allow airs and graces. And you know sometimes ... Life, I guess ... the pretentiousness of life. And Colin never allowed that. He just saw you as who you were and then forced you to be that person, to be yourself with him, because he didnae accept you no being yourself because he only spoke to you as yourself. He kind of broke away all these illusions that you would have of yourself and kind of put you into that who you were. In a beautiful way though, no in a condescending ... You know, we all have too many airs and graces about us so some people, heads up their own arses. He’d see past that. He’d say: “I know your head’s up your arse, that’s no a problem because I like you anyway!” (laughs) “Because I see what’s in there.” And so he was a great mirror to people because he showed you what you could be, what man should strive to be, you know what I mean? And the honour and respect that man should hold for all things, he held it. So he was like that. If you want to be a really good man, you need to learn because there’s very few of them out there. There’s so many people who think they’re ... It’s when you really meet one and get a true example that you are able to say: “Fuck! I need to change my ways!” (laughs) This boy’s just too good man.

What was the funeral like? Because there was a big procession.

It was amazing. An amazing thing. It was the traditional walking wake. We made his coffin in the GalGael. We made it so he didnae have a square coffin. We made it kind of boat shaped, you know? And we used bits of wood that we got at the Free State and had came all the way through that Colin had kept for special bits. Like there was this part of yew and all that. And then we carried him from the GalGael ...

And even before that we actually had a wake which was really nice because so often he had ... When my uncle died, he just went straight from the hospital, was hidden away and you never really got to say goodbye to him. So it was really lovely that his body was in the GalGael for a while. Well, all night before the funeral so ...

We did a vigil. We stayed wth him the night.

Yeah, so we were there ... Well I was there for hours with some of the boys, you know?

We closed his coffin ... And anyway, walking through Govan and Govan stopped for him.

Yeah. Whole streets full of folk.

Everybody stopped. Everybody came out for him, everybody. It’s common to see us about ... You know what it’s like. You lose your best friend, everybody phones you wondering how you are and all that. But ... It’s kind of weird cos he was like one of the closest people in my life and I think a lot of people understood that. He used to say that we were kind of like ... Alasdair arranged that I have a talk once. We were talking about the GalGael once to a bunch of professors from Edinburgh and I took Gehan in as my translater, you know, because it’s academics and I just thought ... And so the usual kind of questions and the question they asked me what it was about myself and Colin that we spoke with this conviction, you know? This way that we spoke was fiery. Sometimes just the West Coast in it, passionate about life. And he certainly was passionate. But I remember when they asked me I said: “I think it’s because where I come from everybody’s a cunt! You’re either a good cunt, a bad cunt, some cunt or nae cunt! Funny cunt or stupid cunt, but we’re every cunt!” You know, and in any other language in the world, that would be a no-no. But in Glasgow, the best compliment you could every give anybody in Glasgow is to say: “You’re a right good cunt by the way!” It’s like the ultimate respect, you know? It’s like ... If your wife’s Glaswegian and you turn round and say, “I love you darling,” she’ll go: “Get tae fuck!” But if you go: “I love you like fuck darling!” (laughs) It’s this completely different language thing. And Colin had that. He had the whole language thing because, as I say, he was so honest. He was so sincere and honest that I don’t think he thought about what he had to say. A lot of people think about what they’ve got to say. Colin, it just came out of Colin. It just rhymed and it come right off him, the truth. And you know what the truth’s like, it just comes rhyming out. It cannae be stopped for naebody. Nobody likes hearing it but he had a way of telling the truth that never really got your back up. You know sometimes the truth ... He had a way of telling you the truth, the real truth, so you never got your back up. You never liked ... You didnae want to shoot the messenger and he was the messenger, that person that came along at the time when he was needed to tell the truth, you know? Because as we build motorways more and more into the green and more and more into the green space, it’s less and less green space, you know what I mean? And we are all seeing ... I mean, they’re talking now of the global warming and all that. It could be myth, it could be fact. It’s just that something we’re all going to have to deal with in the future. And the way Colin thought about it, we could be dealing with it now, you know? Start dealing with it now. Don’t wait till the future, just tell it as it is. We are changing the world irreversibly and we have to start bringing an understanding to that because it’s ... We’re only speaking with human voices and I think he was one of the true people who spoke with the whole voice, do you know what I mean? He was touched a bit by God, touched a bit by nature. Some man. And he spoke that truth and if there was ever any biblical person about in the Twenty-first Century, I’m telling you it was Colin Macleod man. The first time I saw him, I swear I just looked at him and went, “Wow! There is a spirit!” Without the words. I went: “Wow.” Just the way that he was, just that happy-go-lucky and when everybody was taking everything so seriously, he was serious but he still made it fun. It was a serious issue, right? But there was no point in getting heated up or angry about a serious issue when you could make it fun but still get the same results. That was the most important thing, getting the result. The result’s what matters. How you go about it is how you get the right result and he went about it the right way and with a total humanity, total humanity. Aye, definitely. I loved the man and I think that’s probably one of the first people I could ever say, with the hand on my heart, that I truly loved was Colin Macleod because he was ... You couldnae no love the man.

I know. He was just ...

Blew me away.