Maybe the best place to start is how you first came to the camp.

How I first came to the camp? I think I first went down to Pollok ... I mean everyone had been talking about this crazy guy in a tree which naturally, you know, gets your curiosity going. And I was up in Skye and organising some protests against the Skye Bridge and read an article in a magazine. I can’t remember the title of the article but it was all about how important culture is in giving us ... How community and traditional values have been deliberately eroded to make us more sort of malleable as a mass population, if you know what I mean, and how important it is to start taking issues back into our own hands and not waiting around for other people to do something about them and say “Right, what is it we need and how do we answer our needs and how can we come together? What space do we have to come together to sort of cooperatively get this creative interaction happening to meet those needs?” And so the guy who wrote this article was a certain Colin Macleod! And at the end of the article it was proposing that we start a summer college and rather than bring in experts we just pooled our knowledge and also pooled what things interested us that we would like to learn about. And that we would kind of take an overview of history and then bring it to the present day and see where we stand in relation to what has been happening - socially, politically, culturally - over the last two to three hundred years. And that really fired up a lot of thoughts that I guess ... and discussions that I’d been having with other people but it also brought a lot of them together and it seemed to make a lot of sense and so I thought “Right, I’m up for a bit of that” and I went looking for the protest at Pollok. But I think they were away that day because we just ended up getting stuck in brambles and cut to pieces by all these thorns looking for something that wasn’t there. And then the second time there was organized events down there and one of the first was a bit of music, a bit of a party, to encourage people to come down so that there were enough bodies around to help Colin to put up the eagle totem pole, which was lying there already carved but needed a squad of people to help shift it from, you know, lying flat on the ground to sitting upright.

What were your first impressions when you actually did meet people from the camp and Colin?

Gosh, that’s quite a hard one to answer. Obviously, I suppose, my first impressions of Colin were completely different of other people at the camp. I suppose just the ... enthusiasm I don’t think is a strong enough word for it. The passion, the intensity, the integrity, the ... no airs and graces, no layers of complexity you know? Just a kind of “I am what I am” kind of thing, which is quite challenging for other people, I think, to be in the presence of somebody who’s like that. But my first impressions of the camp were that there ... I think as well because I had been involved in other protests elsewhere, I felt it’d be really interesting to be involved in something right from the start, although it had been kind of bubbling along before I even managed to find anybody down there but it was still fairly early days. And just to sort of be there in the various stages in the protest and play a role in creating a hub of activity, if that’s the right way of putting it.

So from the beginning, the idea that it was more than a protest camp was always apparent? I think two things come across which is the motorway issue but also the land issue, that this is public land. It’s about the public who had taken guardianship of their own land. And the university issue comes in quite early on, doesn’t it?

Yes, because ... In fact, have I shown you that article? I’ll need to show you that article cos that might be quite interesting as well. I mean, that talks about ... Again, it’s really the imagery in that article that really captivated me initially. It talks about things like the salmon, the symbol of Celtic wisdom, is nothing but a junkie being fed chemicals in ... you know, farm fed. And just to me, imagery like that is just kind of mind blowing and really does put everything else in perspective and in proportion and I suppose that ... looking back, that context to Pollok was always there, so yes it was always more than a road protest. But I suppose it’s down to different people’s perspectives of what they were getting involved in and if you were getting involved just to get involved in a road protest, then that’s probably all you ever saw it as, and that was fine in itself. That played that role, that served that purpose. But I think there was definitely always that bigger context. Sometimes as well when you look back it surprises you how much intention was in things that you thought evolved, you know? So when I read back over that article I feel that a lot of the main themes in it we’re still working with and that’s quite both mind-blowing and kind of reaffirming at the same time. But ... I’m trying to think. But yeah, I mean there was a lot happening in land issues at that time in the wider sense in Scotland. There was the Assynt Crofters had just bought out their land and that was the first buy out. That was pre even there being a Scottish Land Fund to assist communities with that. And the Eigg Trust had just launched their campaign to buy the Island of Eigg. So there was all these things happening in the wider context and I think that was a definite part of what went on. What became the Free State was about what is the urban response to that and, you know, how to relate people from the urban population to these issues of rural land. And to us there was a very real linkage but at the time I don’t that was being properly represented in the way the issues were being discussed. And I think that was probably as well because it was very early days in terms of bringing up land issues and issues of land reform in Scotland so ... And I guess hindsight’s a wonderful thing. I wasn’t super intelligent back then, I wasn’t thinking, “Yeah, they should really be talking about ....” But yeah, there is a link. You know, why are there these vast areas of Scotland that are largely depopulated still, and increasingly with population drain, and yet in the big urban centers like Glasgow and Edinburgh you’ve got people crammed in very small spaces and a lot of them deprived and not accessing what is a free and fantastic resource in Scotland’s national heritage. And I think that those sorts of themes were very much at the beginning of Gal-Gael.

There’s one thing that kind of comes to mind that ... At least my understanding is that maybe the cultural dimension of both the Free State in terms of what it became, Gal-Gael and is that there seems to be a distinction in Gaelic law for land to do with people being given the responsibility of looking after the land whereas in modern law, which is law that spread across Scotland during the Industrial Revolution and the Clearances and everything, is based on the idea of land being property that individuals can possess. And it seems to be ... I don’t know whether that was conscious or not but something about this idea of guardianship rather than possession seems to be a kind of key thing about how the Free State ... or one of the things that kind of propelled it, if you like.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that would be a theme and looking back, you know, certain things kind of go to sleep on you and then you waken up again when you get back in contact with it. But I think, yeah, I think going back to the traditional ways in which communities were structured was a lot more conducive to stewardship of land rather than ownership of property. I mean even things like the old kind of kings ... I can’t remember what you call them in Scotland. Always in Scotland you were the king of the people but not of the land, you were King of Scots but not of Scotland. There was never a King of Scotland, there was a King of Scots and I think that’s following through, that idea that the land is something that’s, you know, beyond all of us as humans and beyond our right to own for personal gain. But that’s a bit of a fudged answer to a very good question ... (laughs)

In another way, cos there is this strand of picking up the ... The kind of shards of Gaelic culture and trying to gather them together again. And there’s also that aspect, I think, that when you look over histories of people prior to the Clearances and through it, there’s also a very strong nomadic element to Scottsh culture. Tinkers were not a marginal group in Scotland traditionally. They were actually a major part of how the country worked. It wasn’t just what we might call Traveller groups but crofter groups also that moved seasonally and stuff like that. And in some ways you get ... I just think people like Mick and stuff like that, the Free State sort of attracted that, one shard that have kind of got drawn in to the fire, if you like.

No, definitely. I mean, when I was trying to collect my thoughts before we started recording, one of the things I was thinking was that to me it’s partly about recreating folklore. I mean, what is folklore? It’s stories which embody the values of a community, you know? And I feel in many ways that’s what Pollok became or that’s the purpose it served. And one of those stories was that the fire never went out. The fire at Pollok never went out. On one level, there were mornings you got up and it was out! (laughs) On another level, the fire in my mind hasn’t gone out. It’s still inspired a number of things, not just Gal-Gael, that are still continuing and when you think what constellated around that fire ... I think one of the most precious things that constellated around that fire was real community. And I think especially in a community as damaged and as broken up and as mish-mashed as Pollok, made up of people that were moved out from other poorer areas in Glasgow and kind of thrown in together with very poor resources and facilities, community and re-finding real community is one of the most powerful things that came out of Pollok. And then beyond that, all the discussions and the talks and the solving-the-world’s-problems and the conversations that happened around that fire ... I feel that was an incredible rich experience and that’s part of, to me, what we’re still working with, some of the themes that were discussed around that fire with Gal-Gael. And I think what Colin said in the “Life In Question” interview, it’s about “How do you relearn to take responsibility?” and to me that’s one of the key themes. It’s not an easy thing to do, you don’t just switch a part of your brain on and you’ve gone from being disempowered and disenfranchised to being able to take responsibility for your own affairs, for your own community. It’s an incredibly difficult process. But I think that is what we ... we did relearn to take responsibility at the Free State because you had to create your own social structure, your own social parameters, what was acceptable behaviour and what wasn’t acceptable behaviour, how did you deal with inappropriate behaviour ...? And suddenly it was a “free state” because we had to collectively devise these things amongst ourselves because the police weren’t coming in. I suppose ultimately you could say that if anything had happened ... there was a violent incident that nearly led to somebody dying and they were there but, at the same time, how did you prevent the situation from getting to that point? And also the fact that in many people’s heads, especially because I think at that time ... that’s right! Me and Colin left the Free State - on a very rare occasion could you get Colin to leave the Free State - to go into town and watch Braveheart in the cinema. So that became this whole notion of ... ‘Freedom!’ became the big one but what is ‘freedom’? And people would be arriving, from all these different backgrounds, at the Free State with all these different notions that it’s a “free” state that equals “freedom to do anything.” And that was a recipe for chaos so you had to very quickly communicate to people “No, actually freedom comes with responsibility, the only way you’ll find freedom is by accepting your responsibility as a member of your community.” Because you used to get people coming down and drinking and some ... “used to” because we had to clamp down on that because that’s partly what led to this incident that got out of control. There’d be people sitting around the fire night after night and they’d be clicking their lighters on and off and going “Oh no, I’ve lost ma jellies man, oh no” and “Where you fae? You know so and so ...?” and they’d have the same conversation again and again because they were just so out of it and ... is that freedom? Do you know what I mean? No! (laughs) So I think it’s kind of ... It was a great space for exploring the nature of things like “responsibility” and “freedom” and what they mean and what they require of us because I think that we’re living in a society that’s obsessed with it’s rights and not ... To me, those rights come with responsibilities. If you’re not equally as obsessed with your responsibilities then “rights” is an empty red herring, you know? Yeah ... (laughs)

That reminds me. There’s an essay by ... Do you know Murray Bookchin? This environmental ... Early pioneer of environmental practice and also a kind of Anarchism and he’s very critical of a lot of what’s often called Anarchism. And there’s an essay he wrote in the early ’80s, he calls it Lifestyle Anarchism Versus Social Anarchism and he taps into exactly this thing. He talks about how there’s a kind of individualist strand within Anarchism. That this isn’t really Anarchism, it’s the idea that “freedom” is that you can do anything you want, and that the freedom of the individual should not in any way be impinged, so it’s kind of an individualist concept. And his argument is that that’s not Anarchism, that’s Capitalism. It’s ...

Exactly, exactly.

... it breaks down society. And he says freedom can only exist with society and you cannot have freedom if you realise it solely as an individual. The meaning of freedom ceases to exist because it needs a social dimension. Society creates freedom. So unless you build through society as a society, you can’t build freedom. You can’t build a free space if you destroy society in the process and destroy what makes the social bonds and that’s where freedom lies.

Right. That would be really interesting to read a bit more about that.

It’s on the web so ...

Right, that’d be excellent. I mean, it’s a kind of ... Not shallower reference but there was a film out recently, I think it was called Into The Wild or something like that and it’s a true story. It’s about this American guy, and he is all set for great things. He’s just come through university and he’s got his degree and he rejects all of that and he just becomes obsessed with living in Alaska with no money. So he travels through America, he goes on the “Missing Persons” because he goes on the run. But he keeps a diary when he’s there and this is what this film is based on, this diary. He has a bad winter and misses a couple of ... He’s starving hungry because the hunting isn’t going very well and he inadvertently poisons himself trying to eat herbs and one of his last things in his diary is that he’s just realized that happiness is only worth something when you’ve got something to share it with, you know? I mean I know that wouldn’t be the same for everyone because you get people who are hermits, that do prefer that, but anyway it just relates to your point. But also, and this isn’t necessarily relating to this interview but just what you were saying there about Murray Bookchin, it sort of tallies with the Steiner kind of thinking about social three-folding. And his thing was that there’s three spheres of community or of society, three spheres of society: the political sphere, the cultural sphere and the economic sphere. And then you’ve got the three ideals which he related to the three ideals of the French Revolution: liberty, equality, egality. But he said it only works ... that each of the ideals should only be applied to one of the societal spheres. So the economic sphere, you should only ever apply the ideal of fraternity to. You should never apply the idea of freedom to it. Freedom is applied to the cultural sphere. This makes a lot of sense but it also ties in with what you were saying there. Anyway!

Coming back to the Free State, it was kind of leaning towards that in a way. What ... I think one the things that’s characteristic about it is the people that started it, and this was the main impetus, came from the community who were directly affected by these problems as a way to create their own solution to those problems. In what ways do you think that was significant to shaping the character of the Free State and how it worked?

I think it kept it grounded in a realism that made it relevant to anybody living in that community. It kind of cut through a lot of the, I don’t know, liberalism or the idealism of protest in general, if you know what I mean, but linked it to very relevant and very pressing issues because Pollok wasn’t a very easy community to live in at that point or for twenty years before that. I think also, for me, it’s important because ... especially when you’re trying to change things for the better or whatever, it makes it harder for people to write it off as being a faction. This is the real concerns of a community voiced in the form of a protest against a motorway but it’s tying in issues of public facilities, like parks. It’s tying in issues of what we do with land that’s gifted to us in perpetuity. It’s tied in with issues of public health, like asthma in children and, you know, knocking schools down. So I think ... One of the things that Colin would repeatedly say is “This is an argument about fresh air and it’s as simple as that.” Who can argue about fresh air? So, again it also goes back to community. People found a community that didn’t exist, or existed in a very fractured sense, in the scheme. You knew that when you walked into the Free State, once it had become more established, what to expect. You knew you would get a decent welcome, that people would take an interest in you, that you could engage in a human relationship that made you feel like a human being ... And I think that’s something I think can often go overlooked but I think is fundamental. And it’s this whole notion of what is radical and what is extreme, do you know what I mean? I mean constantly, especially at that point, you got that label of “you’re an extremist” or “you’re a radical” you know? Radical means “from the roots.” So if radical means “from the roots” and we’re talking about a grass-roots community protest then yes, we’re radical. And if extremist means that we’re standing up for fresh air then yes, call me an extremist. But, to me, somebody that’s wanting to take away fresh air is the extremist and not the other way around, you know? And I think also the fact that there was such a big input from ... not such a big input, that the main input came from local people meant that you had a much greater integration between social and environmental issues in Pollok than you had anywhere else at that time and I think that’s very powerful. I think when you bring social and environmental issues together you start to get to the nub of deeper issues, that all of these sub-issues become social ills.

Just following on from what you just said, coming back to what we were saying earlier about the “free.” There is this danger that when you create a free space, in an area which has so many problems. It’s the problems that come to the surface. It’s the problems that fill up that freedom and take advantage of the freedom and, to some extent, it sounds like you had to work that through. Could you maybe talk about that?

Yeah. I suppose as well it’s that kind of ... It wasn’t a comfortable space initially. Yes, there was people drinking, there were people taking drugs ... not the main people but people would come along and say “Hey, I heard this was a free state.” And that did erupt into violence on more than one occasion and the culmination of that was a woman who was brain damaged ... I think she was brain damaged, I forget now. But anyway, a woman who had a serious head injury as a result of one of these violent eruptions and so at that point, at the very point that happened, we thought “Right, that’s the end of it. That’s the end of this space. That’s the end of this protest.” But we came together and we just decided we have to set our own parameters on what does that ...what does this space mean? I mean, the key one was “No drink or drugs” and the way in which we enforced that was by making it as uncomfortable as possible for anybody who didn’t buy into that. So that’s when Colin dreamt up all of the sort of mini civil engineering projects and just the “Right, grab a barra’, go up to the road bed, bring back a load of chuckies and we’ll create a path round there” and this kind of hive of industry created what was, at many times, a spic and span space! So we had this series of paths through the wood and archways and kitchens and workshops ... So I suppose it’s about putting the challenge out for people: “How easy is it for you to sit and drink while there’s people around you who are busy?.” And it also creates a context where you can say “Right, that’s not space for that. If you want to help us out with the road then you’re free to help us out but you’re not free to indulge in anti-social behaviour, especially at this time of day.” Did that answer your question?

I guess I’m kind of interested in how you worked through ... It seems to me, from what a lot of people said, there were a few kind of key social instruments. There was the fire and there was also the wheel barrow and the tea cup ... (inaudible)

Yeah, the kettle. The number of photographers that came down and spent ages photographing the kettle! (laughs) But maybe they were honing in on that fact. Yeah, that’s interesting, definitely. Yeah ... I think also interesting things come out of a space that’s uncomfortable, if you know what I mean. A space if it’s comfortable and everything’s already established and accepted then nothing’s kind of questioned and queried and explored and discussed whereas, in an uncomfortable space, in a lot of ways everybody comes with different expectations or, you know, ideas of what’s standard or normal so you have to work together to establish what your shared social norms and standards and values are. And then I suppose you’ve got an ownership of those so then you are more passionate or engaged in making sure they’re upheld and not diluted and I suppose that’s kind of powerful in itself. I’m trying to remember what your original question was.

It’s how the freedom could end up being occupied by the problem and the potential ...

I think it’s also ... To me it’s about a social maturity, to move beyond simply the act of protest which is still at the point where you are giving somebody else responsibility for your environment and your future. It’s about moving beyond that to social maturity that says “We take responsibility for our future and our environment and we will hold you to account when your actions, as our elected representatives, run counter to that.” But it’s a step beyond protest. For example, you used to get a lot of people coming down and saying “You should plant a bomb or you should do all of these quite radical, extreme things” (laughs) or talk Colin into committing suicide and martyring himself for the cause and, to me, that again is about political and social maturity. How do all those actions empower others? To me that’s the ultimate question you have to ask. How is what I’m doing empowering people who are coming into contact with me and this action? And if it disempowers as many people as it empowers ... That to me is where violence falls down as it disempowers more people than it empowers on most occasions. Then you’ve got to be more creative than that, you’ve got to be more mature in your understanding of human dynamics and how we bring about change in our society. Something like that anyway.

Okay, so one day a silver coin was found.

Oh yeah.

With a Birlinn on it ...

Yeah, a silver ... It’s that one actually, where the raven’s tail is. I don’t know if you can see it from there. Our Pollok regalia.

So what’s the story behind this?

I suppose the questions became, once the road started to go through: “Do we pack up and go home?” That question was answered with, you know, the idea that it wasn’t just a protest against the road. It had become a lot more than that. So it was about another year after the road had started to go through that we stayed in the woods at Pollok and I think that enabled us to continue to explore the themes of collective responsibility and empowerment and community in that creative space for a longer period of time. So then we were starting to look for a way of carrying that - the creative, constructive and positive side of what had initially been a protest - forward. And so we decided we would create some kind of organization, although there was very much the feeling that we didn’t want to create a standard kind of charity but we were looking to create a vehicle for reconvening a sense of people-hood ... So we all started discussing what that would be called and I guess it had shades of the sort of Findhorne, sitting round in a circle and meditating ... No it didn’t actually (laughs) because I was coming out with these green, fluffy names like “New Leaf” or “Green Twig” or something like that and Colin, in a very un-cooperative, un-consensus way, said “No! It’s going to be Gal-Gael!” because he’d just been reading a book about the history of Lewis and the Outer Hebrides. So I conceded that point and I thought “Right okay, I’ll get my own way on the logo” so I started drawing Scots Pines and salmon and different leaves and things like that and he said “No! It’s going to be a Birlinn, which is a Highland galley, cos that’s the sign that’s associated, the emblem that’s associated, with the Gal-Gael people. And I thought “No, I’m going to stick to my guns with this one, I gave way on the name but I’m not giving way on this one.” And then, on one of those very rare occasions that Colin left the Free State, we were away for the weekend and came back and somebody came up to us when we arrived and said that when we’d been away a guy with a metal detector had come down and had found this silver necklace and the picture on the necklace was a Birlinn, a Highland galley. So I thought “Right, okay, I can’t argue with that” so I had to concede that point as well. And then fairly shortly after that Colin said “The Birlinn’s not only the emblem, we can actually achieve a lot of our social and environmental objectives by actually building a Birlinn and reconvene a people around that purpose, that common purpose, and that in doing that we will be recreating a folklore.” And that’s been the story that’s been carrying us ever since and I think it ties into that thing, a lot of the time, that the journey’s as important as the arrival and that’s certainly true in the case of Gal-Gael.

You just answered my question there. I was going to ask, was it purely ...? That’s a poetic or symbolic significance but was there also a conscious idea of it being in Govan? It’s a ship building area. Ship building is part of the continuing industrial identity in Glasgow. Was it a way of connecting that industrial identity to the historical identity that the peoples of Govan came from?

Yeah, it was. And again it was like “How do we respond to the developments in land reform, with the Assynt crofters buying their land and the launch of the campaign to buy the Isle of Eigg and what is our realistic response as a landless, disempowered, urban people?.” And my personal wish at the time was “I’ve lived in Pollok for two years with no doors, I want to go and create some kind of rural paradise and just kind of live there,” and Colin was like “No, we’re not going to go and become some kind of outsider in some kind of rural idyll and preach at the city about how it needs to change it’s behaviour. What we need to be doing is creating a real response to these issues that represent the cares, the issues, of urban people and we’re going to do that from where we live, which is Govan. And so we’re going to build a boat because of the tradition of boat building in Govan.” But I think also boats, apart from being very rich in the sort of metaphorical sense - there’s no end to the puns you can make about boats - but they are representative of transformation, both in relation to the materials - you know when you go from a tree to a plank to a boat - but also in relation to the journey that we go on through life and the journey that we’re collectively on in our communities, from one state to another. And the skills and the wisdom we need to acquire along the way to serve us, to sustain us, on that journey ... And I think it’s like that thing of: they become the way in which you can integrate all those things that have become fractured in our society. You know, the Elder, which is like that salmon that has become a chemical junkie. I mean, in our society, old people are largely thrown to one side in care homes with regular reports of their abuse instead of respected as wise people in our community while the youth are somebody to be feared and roam the streets creating havoc. And so I think boats become a mechanism for integrating the fractured elements of our society, elder and youth, the insider and the outsider of the whole notion that Gal-Gael means “the strange and foreign Gael.” I always say “I’m the foreign Gael and they’re the strange Gaels” but I think it’s playing with notions of identity and belonging and expanding them so that they’re capable of encompassing anybody who wants to belong. So yeah, integrating insider and outsider, elder and youth ... our past and our future! I don’t think ... you know, one of the things that sometimes I think people misunderstand is that we’re trying to religiously re-grip the past, we’re not. But we are using the past as a source of inspiration to give our future roots to grow from, to give our future rigid-ness and I think again it’s that thing of “If we are rooted in traditional values then ...” That’s especially important in modern society where you are exposed to so many confusing influences. If you’re not rooted in something that’s fairly ... I was going to say concrete but that’s the wrong analogy! (laughs) If you’re more susceptible to getting swept away on the latest trend and engulfed in a sea of consumerism that leaves you kind of empty ...

I think superficially, when some people see the Gal-Gael, they just see it as this kind of nationalist thing. They just see it as Scottish, cultural symbols, and they don’t look beyond that. It seems to me that Gal-Gael means something quite different from just nationalism.

Yep, very much so.

Could you explain?

Funnily enough, Colin used to always argue with his cousins on this point. They used to say “Gal-Gael is a nationalist organisation.” Well, I think that if you went to Kenya and didn’t see the sort of cultural representation of the local peoples, you would think that you were being exposed to globalism and multinationals. Well I think ... The Gal-Gael’s saying “Right, we’re living in Scotland. Not all of us are Scottish ‘pure-bred’, if there is such a thing, but we celebrate the cultural roots of the place that we’re in now.” And I think that’s important because I think culture embodies some fundamental shared values and, again, without that we have shallow roots in a confusing modern world. But I think also it’s about creating a form of nationalism which isn’t the narrow kind, it transcends that by being confident enough in itself to welcome anybody who wants to be a part of that.

I was kind of wondering whether it captures a difference between ethnicity and nationalism? And nationalism, the idea of the nation state which is defined territories and is a legal word, whereas ethnicity ... The word ‘ethnic’ comes from ‘ethnos’ which is ‘doing’. An ethnic group isn’t actually a blood group necessarily, it’s people who have a common “doing’.

Right? That’s interesting, I never knew that.

And that practical aspect of the Gal-Gael seems to be, in some ways, more a form of identity through doing, rather than a form of identity through legislation.

Yeah, definitely. I think, to me the notion of “people-hood” comes in here and it’s not so much nationalism as a sense of being a people. And a people, to my mind, are united by their stories and their culture and the common tasks which inspire them and motivate them.

... if you’re willing to do, you’re part of it.

Yeah. It’s that thing as well that George Macleod used to say: “Only a demanding common task unites community.” And it’s just creating that focus, that everybody feels they are a part of and want to contribute their labour to. So ... yeah. And what you do is a fundamental part of your identity so that’s what unites us as a community in the Gal-Gael kind of context. And I suppose that’s the purpose that boats serve, they become a demanding common task. There was an interesting thing that Alasdair was telling me about, that when they went to visit French folks and they were in the French Alps and they were talking to this French farmer, who’s equivalent is the crofters in the Highlands. I think he was one of the last with a working farm or croft and they were asking him why he thought that was and he was saying it was because so many of the tasks with keeping a Highland farm or croft going were ones that demanded the whole community to get involved and that community didn’t exist anymore so there was nobody to contribute to those tasks. I thought that was interesting and I did have a think about why that was relevant to Gal-Gael but I can’t ... (laughs). And I think that’s what ... We went to this “Quay Conversation” programme on the BBC, with Bob Holman and there was a woman, a really amazing woman, Bess Brown from “Imagine Chicago” there as well. And Tam’s nephew who’s a rapper who’s spot on, he’s brilliant. If you get a chance to tune in you should listen because it just totally busts up the myth that young people are completely in the enthrall of consumerism, you know? But that’s what I was kind of thinking. This line about what the conversation was about, it was about the importance of community in insuring that nothing and no one is wasted. It wasn’t quite that phrase but something similar. And I think when you look back historically ... and I think that this is the sort of theme we’re trying to work with with Gal-Gael but we’re still kind of trying to figure it out. Communities were incredibly efficient mechanisms of meeting people’s needs, whereas the monetary system is a very messy way of meeting pseudo-needs. It’s a very inefficient way of people meeting their needs. So ... I just had that think quite a while ago. It’s not quite a thought yet! (laughs) It’s evolving from a think to a thought!

We started off talking about the differences between nationalism and ethnicity.

Yeah, yeah. I think it is a very emotive thing. I think it’s the reason as well why people have ... It’s also a response to this embarrassment about being Scottish, you know? The “cringe factor” that seems to have ... I think we’re coming beyond that, we’re coming well beyond that. Since Gal-Gael started, I think we were much more out on our own when we all started than we are now. I think we’re now part of a growing acknowledgement of the worth of ... I mean, things like the sentiment of some of Burns’ poetry and how poignant and relevant it is to the modern world and shouldn’t be reserved for things like the plastic tartan trade that I brought back from my Nan and Granddad’s. So yeah, I think it goes back to that article that Colin wrote, which I’ll have to show you because I’ve referred to it sometimes, about how a response to consumerism needs to be to reverse that process of undermining the cultural and community bonds. And I think that that’s what Gal-Gael’s about rather than narrow forms of nationalism. It’s about “How do we look to our culture to re-learn the ways in which we supported each other in society?” And I think it’s also about “How do we relate to issues of poverty? What does poverty mean?” It means that we ... Now much more people acknowledge that it’s much more than monetary wealth. You know, if you’re monetarily ... Poverty, it relates to more than just not having much money and that there is a wider acknowledgement now that poverty relates to your poverty of aspiration, your social networks and so on. But I think we almost need to move beyond that and say “Well, poverty is about our ability to meet our needs” and I think communities were, and have the potential to be, incredibly efficient mechanisms of everybody meeting their real needs. And it’s what we lose in the process of losing traditional culture and I think there’s as much embodied in traditional Scottish culture that’s worthy of ... not just worthy but relevant to how we live our lives today as there are in any traditional culture around the world. You know, people are always talking about the wisdom of the Native American or tribal societies around the world ... so Scottish culture is just as relevant and how do we bring it alive? I think that’s important. It’s not about preserving as a job that’s adequately performed by museums and libraries. It’s “How do we pick up the threads and continue to work with them in ways that both preserve but also carry forward the wisdom in ways that are relevant to how we make sense of the world today?” Does that make sense? I’m just remembering Colin always used to say those really ... He always used to say “Do you know what I mean? Do you know what I’m saying? Do you know what I mean?” at the end of everything he said, you know? It was really kind of like ... It was just this really frantic need to know that you’d understood what he was saying, you know? It was more than just a sort of habit of speech, if you know what I ... (laughs)

Talking about this idea of continuing things and ... The Free State and Gal-Gael grew a lot from Colin and what he gave to it. What’s ... How do you continue after he has gone? Has it changed what the Gal-Gael is or ...?

In some ways it’s changed and I think it would be unimaginable to say that things didn’t change without Colin because he played such a big role and was such a big presence, so naturally it’s changed. In another way, I feel that it’s kind of strengthened what Gal-Gael’s about because you ... And I don’t think in an unhealthy way but in a healthy and natural way you sort of cling to that essence and it’s even more important that you don’t lose that along the way. And I think in a lot of ways I also feel that big presence of Colin’s is still there in the form of Gal-Gael and not through any one individual but almost through this basis between individuals and the influence that he’s had on us. And like Tam was saying, it’s every time you can’t quite ...you’re not quite sure how to do something, you just remember how Colin did something and then you’ll be off again and getting through things. And I think that’s also a testament to the way in which Colin worked and how his unique ability to empower other people, that we’re still keeping Gal-Gael going and, I hope, keeping it strong.

It’s a bit like the task was bigger than the people and the task set in motion for yourselves is one that carries on. Also, passing on skills and passing on the spirit and if that wasn’t passed on ...

Yeah.

In a way, it seems a bit like your decision to continue when the motorway was built, was in some way: “Right, we’ve achieved something here that we need to pass on” so the Gal-Gael came from that. It seems also almost a symbol of a crossing point where you maybe realised you needed to pass on things.

Yep, very much so. And I think as well, it is like being on a journey. It’s hard to ... cos you could get into all kinds of different levels of talking about this but I feel that Colin is still with us on that journey. And when you’re on a journey you create a certain amount of momentum and that momentum is still there and Colin is still a key part of that momentum. And in a lot of ways I think that ... I feel that some kind of “clever” people used to say “Well Colin didn’t build boats” and that kind of thing and I think that was part of his ... What’s the word when you always make way for somebody else? I think it was a sign of the level to which he ... The level to which he was always thinking about other people first, that he never actually achieved his personal ambition of building a boat himself. He kind of facilitated other people being involved and he created situations where boats came into being but he didn’t actually learn how to be a boat builder. But I think if you take a step back and you look at it from a different perspective, I think that Gal-Gael was the boat that he was building and he must’ve known what he was doing because we’re still here and we’ve ridden out a few storms since then and I think we could ride out a couple more. And beyond building Gal-Gael as a boat, he also set our eye on a certain destination, which is kind of compelling, and I think we’re all still motivated to reach that destination.