If you just ... Can we take your mind back to the first time ... Or how did you first hear about the Pollok Free State?

Strangely enough, I was just reading through a diary this morning and it was in ... I think it was May 1995, ’96, I was involved in the Greenpeace group in Greenock and we came through as part of a demonstration at the Free State. At the time we came through, I’d never heard of it. I’d no idea what to expect at all other than it was a road demonstration but we went up to Pollok Park and saw the fire and the tents and just felt the atmosphere and thought: “This is going back to my roots, this is wonderful!” (laughs) And it was just a huge ... It was another world. It was just ... It was a very positive blast of anarchy. And that was it. We did the protest, we were involved in the protest for that afternoon and it was wonderful. To me in particular, with my circumstances at the time, it wasn’t the best of circumstances ... That was it. Went back to Greenock and that was my ... I thought maybe my last interaction with the Free State until, probably, less than a year later. I moved to the south side of Glasgow, to Pollokshaws ... Pollokshields? Pollokshields. Quakie Street, just down the road from the Free State and my marriage had broken up at that point so I was back on my own. And it wasn’t a good time, wasn’t a good time at all. So I spent a lot of time wandering around, had a lot of free time, and I found myself up at the Free State and just tentatively wandered in and spoke to Colin, met Colin there, and Colin is as Colin was, just a blast of fresh air that really ... And for no particular reason other than what I got out of it, the positivity and the ... a real contrast to the rest of my life at that time, I wandered up on a more frequent basis myself. I just sat and socialised and spoke to people and that was it. I ... At that point I had changed my job and started working at a day centre in Berryknowes with adults with learning difficulties. We did different kinds of activities, different groups, which we had a kind of autonomy over, our programme. And I thought: “Hmm, conservation ...” I thought along the lines of conservation and it struck me it might be a good idea to take some clients up. It was within our area and it made a lot of good sense, you know, to involve people in their own area in activities so, on a weekly basis, we started going to the Free State. I spoke to Colin about the group coming along and I think he was a wee bit at a loss to know what we could actually do, but Danny was doing perma-culture at that point. He was making a garden in the camp. His ... “Aye, you can help Danny! Help Danny!” So we did. We come along on a Tuesday and do a bit of gardening. We’d dig ... not a lot, it has to be said, but we’d dig a little and help make paths, fetch wood ... Did water carrying as well, I think. And a lot of socialising around the campfire as well, which was an amazing experience for us all. Myself and Roma and the guys particularly, we made a lot of friends, a lot of links there, which stand to this day. We still go down periodically to GalGael and re-awaken friendships. A lot of stories can be told about there, about those periods ... But personally a lot of it was about, also, just the ... How could you put this? About the passion, about the ... pause for thought here ... That went into the whole place, that ... Yeah ...

What sort of activities were going on in the camp? What was like ... ? You’ve mentioned how you would contribute to things like the water carrying and perma-culture gardening. What else was going on? I mean, typically, what else could you see around you if you walked in?

Oh ... The people in the camp ... The people would come and the people ... There were a few people that were there a lot but a lot of visitors would pop in and out of the camp. Some days we would go in and it would be crowded. If there was an activity planned there would be a lot of people around. Sometimes, maybe because it was Tuesday afternoon when we went with the group anyway, it was fairly quiet and people just socialising and doing what we did, really. Water carrying and the like. Very sociable people, very hospitable people, though. The tea round the camp fire, round the fire, and we would always take ... What are these biscuits? Hob Nobs, that was it. Hob Nobs! (laughs) It was ... Colin always insisted we bring the Hob Nobs. We weren’t involved in, probably, the road protest at that point. It was a wee bit sensitive for our managers. We obviously had to get permission, get clearance, from our managers as there was obviously a political aspect to it so ... It was a little bit sensitive so we weren’t actually, as a group, involved in any kind of political activity.

How did the people in your group respond to it? What kind of reactions did you get?

Various! (laughs) At first, everybody was a little bit taken aback. Some ... The terrain was quite rough and a few of the guys had trouble walking over it actually. But over the period of time, they just become at ease and at home. Different people had different reactions. I think everybody felt at ease. Some of the more flamboyant characters had a more flamboyant reaction though. I can tell you one story about a man John, John Rankin, who is an actor par excellence, an absolutely amazing actor. Everything becomes a drama! And he’s not afraid to speak out. There was a man, one of the Free Staters, a fearsome man ... A fearsome looking man ... big, size of mountain, long hair ... A working kilt! None of your anti-Stewart stuff, it was a working kilt. Boots and huge and John went up to him and looked at him: “You look like a pillock!” (laughs) And ... “You don’t say that to him!” But he did! Everybody folded up. But yeah, everybody felt comfortable with it but ... One of our clients, we had trouble keeping her away from the men, it has to be said. Had to get her out of ... There was a man there, I think his name was Andy, with a beard and a guitar and he lived in a caravan on the site and ... Oh, we desperately had to keep an eye on Cathy to keep her out of his caravan! She was ... “Oh, I’m going to Andy’s caravan ...” “No!” (laughs) But it was good fun. It was as much a new world to the clients as it was to us. Yes.

Over how long a period did you do it?

That’s a good point. Probably about a year, I would think. About a year. That’s a good point. It seemed a long time. I think it was at least a year. Could you remind me of the ... ? When did the Free State break again?

Would’ve been ’95, ’96.

Wow, was it? Hmm ... Because I was there at the last as well. I remember trying to haul a caravan out of the camp, up the slope onto the road, and when we dismantled the lodge as well I was there. Was it ... ? Would’ve been 96 then. It would’ve been 96. So it was only about ... A couple of years, was it? Was it as long as a couple of years?

Were there noticeable changes over the course of the year? Like, as you went through the seasons did it change who was there or what the atmosphere was like?

Hmm ... There probably was. I can’t specifically ... Obviously in the woodlands the atmosphere would’ve changed but I can’t specifically think of the changes.

Maybe you don’t pick up so strongly if you’re visiting ...

No, no. As I say, it was ... I suppose in ... It was maybe fairly peripheral but it’s for ... Even the involvement I had, it’s a major impact. It did everyone. There’s a man, Brian. I can’t remember his surname. He’s a choreographer, an artist. It was actually on the day of Colin’s funeral, we were rehearsing and performing at the Tramway, four last songs with Independance, and Brian was doing the costumes and the backdrop and various aspects of the performance and I’d mentioned that Colin had died and it transpired that Brian had been at the Free State for a period of time as well, so it’s everywhere you go you meet people who’ve been there.

Everyone’s got a positive response to it so far. I’ve not ... even people who were not involved in it, you can mention it to them and they remember it and it’s a positive memory people have.

Yep. It’s ... just a vision, isn’t it? The word I was trying to think of earlier, it’s just a vision. Colin’s vision and what’s happening, it’s just what really appealed to me as well, both in the Free State and in GalGael. In fact, the only negative comment I’ve ever heard on the Free State is a man who is actually the husband of somebody I know. His reaction to the Free State was, and Colin particularly, was: “Och, he doesn’t pay his council tax!” Which actually ... I mean, people thought of Colin as a man that lived up a tree but he still had his flat in Govan as well so ... The comment wasn’t accurate, for a start, but that’s the only negative reaction I’ve ever heard to the Free State.

So you mentioned, kind of going back to the start again, that you came up from Greenock and took part in a protest. What was that like? What was your experience of that?

Oh ... That was bizarre. We came up .. .Ostensibly it was a road protest. Part of the protest was we were to lie in an open part near the camp, an open field near the camp. Originally it was envisaged we would all stand and form the words “No M77” and there was going to be a helicopter, an airplane, photographing us from the air and that was fine. The numbers didn’t quite work out and there wasn’t enough numbers for us to stand upright, “No M77,” so we had to form the words by lying end to end and it was a wet and muddy day! (laughs) So we lay there, “No M77,” probably for about half an hour before somebody came along and said: “I’m sorry but we can’t get the aerial shot!” (laughs) But there were a lot of people around in the camp and it was just a lot of likeminded people, just experiencing Free State hospitality as well. It was like a hippy camp. It was like going back to the 60s roots, it was wonderful. Completely another world ... Yeah, but as I say ... As I say, I didn’t think at that point I would manage to get back again but I did, as I said.

And you were saying ... kind of jumping ahead in time, but you helped clear the camp when it got to the end. What was that like?

Oh, it was ... to say it was sad was ... it was just ... it was quite emotional just seeing what had been life, kind of ... a kind of vitality just being stripped really, you know? The caravan went, the lodge was taken away and ... Ach, it was very emotional, very sad. But I don’t think Colin saw it that way, actually. I don’t think Colin at that point had the vision of it continuing. I think realistically he knew it would have to end. In fact, he said that it would have to end. It wasn’t envisaged to carry on forever anyway so it was ... But it was, it seemed to be a wee bit an end of an era. I don’t think ... I didn’t have any idea that GalGael would evolve in the way it did so, to me, it seemed to be the end of a very short era but a very, very important one. But yeah, I said it was sad. It was sad but, thinking back ... Bearing in mind it’s sinking back about twelve years and, for an older man with his brain cells dropping off, it’s a fair stretch of the memory! (laughs) But yes, I was quite honoured to be in it at the end. I remember being glad that I was able to be there at the very end as well. I did little actually but often I would just ... Even when I visited, I would go and I’d sit and I’m a quiet soul and often I wouldn’t say that much but just being in the atmosphere ... It was always welcoming, always welcoming.

People say that the motorway wasn’t the only point of it, it wasn’t the only issue. What other issues, when you went to visit, did you feel that ... ?

I think Colin always had his vision of that community, the importance of that community and raising the consciousness or whatever or reviving a sense of pride in identity in the community. You’ve met Colin, didn’t you? No? You would’ve seen the footage though, that he was always a very, very passionate man and he was just a flood of ideas, a lot of which I couldn’t intellectually take on. I was just swamped by all these ideas! And thinking back, yeah, that seemed to be as much of his focus as the road protest. He had this myriad of ideas all floating around and the road protest ... I didn’t realise at the time, I’m just thinking back now, the road protest was just one of them. Obviously it was ... the whole community were angry about the fact that the road was whipping through the area and wiping out a portion of Pollok Park as well, so obviously that was around but yes, I think his ideas about the resurgence of his ... Well, his area and ... always came through strongly. As I say, it was just a flood of ideas and, intellectually ...That was the kind of paradox about Colin, I think, the fact that he just came over as a big ... just a rough sort of down to earth local guy but he had this enormous intellect as well. I didn’t realise that until later when I’d had more one to one interaction with him and he just swamped me. Happy to be swamped and have these ideas swept in and I percolated them over a period of time and ... But his passion was always around and, I think ... As I say, I think he could see where he was wanting to go after the Free State and I think, whether he actually realised that consciously or not, I think that came through.

What do you feel is the kind of key thing that you personally took away from the experience? What do you think it’s legacy’s been to you?

The fact that ... The positivity. I keep using that word but it is the positivity. I think the fact that Govan and individuals in the Free State and individuals could ... Pretty dire, pretty dire situations and yet the Free State and the people in it ... I keep focusing on Colin but Colin gathered around him a lot of like-minded people and they all had this positivity that humbled me often. I can be a whiney wee git at times and I’ve had my share of bad times, as anyone has, and I’d go mumping it up to the camp and I just come away floating really. It was just the ... The idea that you shouldn’t just give in to the negativity. Even though Colin and Gehan and everyone up there could get angry and, obviously, they weren’t saints! None of us are, but the fact that the positivity could transcend that, or channel it anyway in a positive way. And it was just an alternative world as well. More simple. Going back ... I’m an old hippy and I can be very, very critical of the modern world and there’s aspects of the modern world that I put up my hands at and it was just, I suppose, going back to the kind of reconnection with simpler, more basic times as well. A little bit idealistic, I know, but that’s what it was and that’s one of the things I took out of it, as well as a lot of friends, a lot of friendship. A lot of support as well, particularly in the early days when, as I said, I had a bad personal situation. A lot of personal support as well. Yeah, I think that was it. Yes, all very positive, all very positive. You could drag your feet going along the few miles down to the Free State and skip away from it! (laughs) Yeah, all very positive. And it continues.

Have you ever been back to the site?

Weirdly enough, a couple of times over a year I had been but not for a few years. Not treading the path anyway, though coming back from ... Where was it? Coming back from Stranraer a couple of weeks ago, we passed by the end of it and you could see where one of the ... There was a carving on the edge of a man, a screaming man. At one point he had a wooden chainsaw through his middle there and you could see that. I think it had been vandalised, from what I could see from the bus. And all the campsite was obviously completely overgrown but I have a mind to go back and just ... I mean, Pollok Park is just a wonderful place to be in anyway but ... Yeah, I’ve always liked going back to places that have been important to me in the past, you know? Sometimes it’s been a mistake but things do change. You’ve seen all the carvings, haven’t you, that came from it? The ones that were up in ... ? As I say, the photographs I gave to Colin were largely of the carvings as well and ... I think we have the negatives. I’m hoping so anyway. They were inspirational as well, wonderful things. Yeah, it was just a wee connection with simpler times, that camp. It was just so ... I’m more ... I’ll not say ‘more’ ... I like living in the city. I enjoy living in the city as well but I think I’m more country based, got a country head, and it was just that connection with the sort of natural thing as well, the nature, but ... Yeah, it’s ...